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WISC-IV Verbal much lower than Perceptual reasoning- could she have a LD?
Back2Work September 29, 2009
I am new to this group and thought you might be the ones to ask this question. Have you ever seen scores like this? My daughter's perceptual reasoning score is 27 points above her Verbal comprehension. What might this mean?
She is almost 9 and doing "fine" in 3rd grade so the school sees no problem since she is scoring well enough on her achievement tests in reading and writing. To me she seems to have some difficulty expressing herself- explaining things either verbal or written. Also, an odd thing I realized last night- she is trying to memorize her multiplication tables, she must pass an oral quiz at school on each number up to 12 and answer quickly. The odd thing is that she can do this (she is working on her 3's, most kids in her homeroom class are up to the 7-8s) using the flash cards, but gets many of them wrong when she doesn't see the numbers (3x 11= ). She is taking a 4th grade math pull-out class, so she is very good in math.
I wonder if she might have a relative learning disability in the auditory/reading/verbal/written areas. Have any of you experienced this?
Any insight would be welcome,
Thanks!
Subtest Scores on the Wechsler Intelligence Scale
for Children, 4th Edition (WISC-IV)
Verbal Comprehension Index 108
Similarities 12
Vocabulary 12
Comprehension 11
Information 14*
Word Reasoning 11*
Perceptual Reasoning Index 135
Block Design 15
Picture Concepts 17
Matrix Reasoning 15
Picture Completion 16 *
Working Memory Index 113
Digit Span 10
Letter-Number Sequencing 15
Arithmetic 15*
Processing Speed Index 123
Coding 12
Symbol Search 16
Cancellation 13*
*Scores are supplementary subtests
healthy11 September 29, 2009
Hi. I've got a son whose PRI scores are also his highest, in the very superior range, although his lowest area is in WMI. There's over a 40 point spread. My son has ADHD, dyslexia, and dysgraphia. I'm not saying your daughter does, because you can't diagnose LDs from a single test instrument. Did they give your daughter the WIAT-II or any other tests at the time of this WISC? (and did the school administer the WISC, or a private evaluator?)
Kids who have strengths in PRI on the WISC are generally considered visual-spatial learners, and they often do best when presented with information in a "hands-on" way, rather than an auditory-sequential way. Your daughter's difficulty with oral multiplication tables doesn't surprise me in the least. Go to www.visualspatial.org for starters, and also there's a great book called "Upside Down Brilliance: The Visual Spatial Learner" by Linda Silverman. It's out of print, but if you can find a copy at your local library or somewhere else, it gives an excellent perspective on children like ours!51528
dhfl143 September 29, 2009
Your daughter is bright.
You are saying that she is in a pull-out class in math so she does very well in math. I may be misunderstanding the term "pull out" as it relates to your school, but in my daughter's school when she was "pulled out" it was to provide her additional supports. In my experience, "pull out" was provided to students that needed extra support -- either because they are struggling and need additional interventions or because they are gifted and need more content to stay engaged.
My daughter had the same problem when she didn't see the numbers. I found that, in her case, it was that she had just memorized the picture 3 X 11 = 33 and didn't really understand the concept that stood behind those numbers. I found that it helped my daughter to understand from the concrete to the abstract. The next paragraph explains what I mean.
For example take the multiplication table for threes, when you are multiplying 3 X 1 = 3, that means that you have one set of three. So I would have her count out three and put it in a cup. Now two times three is three, twice. I would have her count out three and place it in a cup (that's one three) and then have her count out three and place it in the same cup (that's two threes). Now she would count how many pennies are in that cup when you put three in the cup twice to understand the concept that 3 X 2, is three twice, which equals or is the same as 6. We would do this for all of her three times table.
I usually teach kids their ones, two, fours, fives, nine's, and 10's first because these are easier to learn using various techniques.
One times any number is the number.
Here is a trick to learning the nine's times table:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVbcra3rCqc
Tens all end with the number followed by a 0, So if you are multiplying 10 X 3 it is easy to figure because you take the "3" and put a "0" behind it, which is "30".
In addition, here is a web site that provide additional resources:
www.resourceroom.net/math/index.asp
(629791)51529
michellea September 30, 2009
As the others have noted, your daughter is very bright. While it is unusual to have this must spread between VCI and PRI, it does happen, and in and of itself does not indicate a LD. In fact, most people with LD have lower processing and working memory scores as Healthy described with her son.
You can't diagnose a LD from one test. There are many realms of cognition, and the WISC gives you great information to begin exploring for strengths and weaknesses. Based on this one test, it appears that your daughter's strengths are in her ability to think in pictures and the non-verbal realm. When words are involved, he scores are much lower. But - as you see, they are very solid pushing toward the high average range.
Were any other tests given? What behaviors drove the need for testing? Tell us a bit about her early development. Did she learn to speak on time? How is her language? As part of the evaluation did she take any tests that measured language processing? Auditory processing? How is her reading? Spelling? Organization? Social Skills?
Again, from these scores it would be impossible to identify a LD. My son's scores for the VCI and PRI are very similar, but reversed. AND he has a language based learning disability. Even though his cognition in the verbal realm is superior, he has difficulty with the lower level reading and writing skills. This does not show up in the WISC. It's possible that the same is happening for your child. She is clearly superior in the non verbal skills that support math. But maybe there is a processing difficulty in a related area of cognition that gives her trouble at the lower levels of math. You would need more testing to tease this out.51530
Back2Work October 8, 2009
Sorry for the delay in getting back to everyone's comments, been off-line for a week!
Healthy11- the school did not administer the WISC IV and did not do WIAT-II, we paid privately to have the WISC done. She was "screened" for ADD and it was "normal", whatever that really means! I will check out the book, it sounds interesting.
dhfl143 Her pull-out is for a one grade level advancement. Thanks for the links, I've tried the nines trick before, it is pretty cool!
When my dd sees the numbers she can do the math and understands the concepts, too. It is when she doesn't see the numbers that she can't do the math. We are working on trying to teach her how to visualize the numbers/equation..., we'll see if that works.
michellea- you asked; Were any other tests given? She had two reading comprehension/fluidity tests done. She can read grade level material with accuracy and fluidity (in fact her speed in WPM was off the chart, somewhere above grade 5 when she was in 2nd grade) but, she understood very little of the factual information in what she read in most of the passages. Interestingly, she mostly got the emotions that were expressed "He was sad when.... then he was mad.... then he was embarassed, then surprised... then happy"
What behaviors drove the need for testing? Her reading scores on the NWEA test went from 91% in Spring of '08 to 54% in winter of '09 and she said she hated reading, couldn't answer the question the teacher asked about the story and she avoided reading.
Tell us a bit about her early development. Did she learn to speak on time? Yes
How is her language? Nobody would see anything "wrong" except her close family. She speaks normally but, if she is asked a complex question or tries to explain something relatively complex, such as the rules of how to play a game, it is almost impossible. She must show you how to play the game.
As part of the evaluation did she take any tests that measured language processing? No
Auditory processing? No
How is her reading? She is currently reading at a bit above grade level, which is why the school sees not "problem" that they should investigate and utilize their resources to investigate, such as further testing.
Spelling? She can learn her spelling lists, get most or all of them right, but withing a few weeks she spells them wrong again. She will mis-spell words that are printed in the instructions or are in the paragraph she read. She also won't look back in he text to find an answer to a question and will only answer using what she remembers of the story.
Organization? - not very. She is a pack rat, her room is a mess, everytime I help her organize it, it is a wreck within a few weeks. Yesterday I almost threw out a bag of "trash" that, on further inspection contained her jacket and MP3 player.
Social Skills? Seem ok, she has several friends but has been bullied a by one of her "friends"
Her lower-level math skills are good- as long as she sees the written problem. I hope to figure out a way to get further testing in terms of language processing, but figure that it is something we will have to pay for!
Thanks all for your input!51531
michellea October 8, 2009
I think your hunch about language and or reading issues may be right. If I were you, I would want more information about her auditory processing, sequencing, and most importantly language processing.
Some of this could be taken care of by a neuropsychological evaluation, much of it would be examined in a speech and language evaluation.
The issues you raise about her being able to organize what she wants to say, organize her room point to executive functioning issues. Difficulty with spelling and remembering math facts point to reading issues. I really think you need to follow your instincts, share this information with a team of professionals and get further diagnostic testing.51532
Brigid2 January 21, 2013
Hello Back2Work. I know this is an older post, but I'm really hoping you will still see this message! My daughter is in 3rd grade and has ALMOST IDENTICAL test scores and a very similar history. I would love to hear more about what steps you took next and if you are up to sharing what results you have found. The school feels there is no problem, but the reading avoidance and other issues are a concern to me.
Thanks for any information you can share!82178
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